Curse

Jeydra · May 05, 2009, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

GOLE and the attunement are basically there to feed Lightning Orb. Working on the completely untested assumption that monster armour scales at roughly the same rate as hero armour (3/level with modifiers for profession and special resistances/vulnerabilities, which act as their equivalent to insignias), in Hard Mode you can probably expect the elemental armour of non-Rangers to be somewhere around the 100 mark. Averaging out, assuming use of a superior air headpiece, you're looking at about 106 damage per orb... or a DPS around 15 (2s cast time plus 5s recharge for a 7s total cycle). Enervating gives another 7 or so, plus whatever you get from wanding, if you get the time.

That's... decent, if you're really looking to play this sort of build with an elementalist, but I'd bet that a necromancer that can put Mark of Pain and/or Barbs on a target before throwing in an assassin and support with up to 30DPS with Necrosis afterwards, or a Mesmer that can throw two assassins and CoP, can do it better. Admittedly, you can't always take the primary you want, but the Elementalist portion of your build just seems to be there as something to do until the AP triggers and you can repeat the professionless skills, as opposed to other professions with skills that actually synergise with them.

Actually a Lightning Orb @ 16 Air deals about 85 damage to Ranger opponents in HM, but that's not the point. The point is ... if you're going to argue that Lightning Orb is a grand 15 DPS, then you'll also be saying that Flare is way, way superior to Lightning Orb because if you spam it nonstop you deal twice the damage - obviously wrong.

You can't do the same with Necromancers or Mesmers. Part of the strength of the bar is that you can cast the Vanguard Sin at the start of the match, which absorbs damage. You can't with Necromancers if you're going to cast Barbs and Mark of Pain (not to mention the Vanguard Sin doesn't always hit the target you cast it on). Necrosis is also a PvE skill. Mesmers have more energy problems. The bar is energy intensive; you are hoping to cast the Vanguard Sin, YMLAD and Finish Him = 30 energy as often as possible, and AP only returns 17 energy when you kill someone. With Mesmers you are putting up Arcane Echo, Cry of Pain, Mind Wrack, Vanguard Sin, etc = a lot more energy, although you do get Auspicious Incantation as alternative energy management. Still if you can't kill the person you put AP on quickly you have more problems, and Elementalists can kill single targets better with Lightning Orb.

I'll say the builds are different, but not necessarily superior or inferior. And while you can argue that the Elementalist skills there are kind of 'filler' in that they're just something to do while you cast the PvE skills, but then, so are the Necro and Mesmer variants (after all, if Cry of Pain had no cooldown, would you use anything else?).

Moloch Vein · May 05, 2009, 11:28 AM // 11:28

I can't see how you can compare the strength of Lightning Orb and Enervating Charge to Barbs and Mark of Pain in PvE. Not to mention your proposed bar contains both Air Attunement and Glyph of Lesser Energy - that's two slots right there that a necromancer can fill with stuff that's useful, such as Enfeebling Blood or Enfeeble ( > Enervating Charge).

Also there's nothing to stop your from "opening" with the Assassin to absorb damage with either of these builds. If that is wise depends on the situation.

Apart from that it's true that the EVA doesn't always hit the target you activate it on - but most times, it actually does. Normally speaking if you want a "fast" attack with some aggro control you use YMLAD in-cast of EVAS. I've never known the assassin not to attack my called target with this approach.

Jeydra · May 05, 2009, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Barbs and Mark of Pain are of course better than Lightning Orb and Enervating Charge, but that's missing the point. After you apply Assassin's Promise you want the target to die. That's when Lightning Orb does its job. Neither Barbs and Mark of Pain are as effective. You can't control minions to hit the target you put Barbs on, wands don't deal physical damage, Mark of Pain doesn't hit the target itself and casting on an adjacent foe means you're vulnerable to kiting, not to mention you're still relying on physical damage.

You can open with the Vanguard Assassin with either Mesmer or Necro builds, but that means you can't pre-cast Arcane Echo on Cry of Pain while microing a hero to VoR (+ casting Arcane Echo in a fight = 15e), and you can't put Barbs and Mark of Pain before using the Vanguard Assassin.

I'm not arguing that E/A is better than Me/A or N/A, but I do think the build is just as effective. It isn't superior, but it is different, and crucially - it is effective Elementalist primary damage in HM.

Xenomortis · May 05, 2009, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Barbs and Mark of Pain are of course better than Lightning Orb and Enervating Charge, but that's missing the point. After you apply Assassin's Promise you want the target to die. That's when Lightning Orb does its job. Neither Barbs and Mark of Pain are as effective. You can't control minions to hit the target you put Barbs on, wands don't deal physical damage, Mark of Pain doesn't hit the target itself.

The necro with MoP should be carrying a spear and should call the target they want to die. You shouldn't need any finishers yourself, but if you do, [Finish Him] and perhaps [You move like a Dwarf] are all that should be necessary.

As a finishing spike, Lightning Orb and Enervating Charge are far from ideal.

It will probably work, but I'm dubious as to its efficiency.

Moloch Vein · May 05, 2009, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Jeydra, can you describe the chain you are using playing the build?

Improvavel · May 05, 2009, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

And it doesn't matter if it is PvE abuse ... it is 1) Elementalist primary and 2) effective damage, which makes it Elementalist damage and contrary to the idea that Elementalists are ineffective damage dealers in HM. That's what matters.

Still offers no party support. Other casters will do as much if not more damage while providing more party support.

Mind blast eles might do less damage (haven't tested that air build) but provides more support. Earth eles can also use assassins promise and cast loads of eruptions.

Also, most people complain about the effectiveness of fire eles nukers - which is middling damage with no support (except mind blast builds), not about eles that do damage and provide support.

And effective damage compared to what?

Jeydra · May 06, 2009, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Jeydra, can you describe the chain you are using playing the build?

Vanguard Sin -> Lightning Orb / Enervating Charge whenever -> when someone drops low, AP, YMLAD, Finish Him, next Vanguard Sin, etc. When low on energy use GoLE, if I AP someone and he gets healed / protted cast Lightning Orb (or just use Lightning Orb while waiting for a target).

Finish Him and YMLAD can easily finish off spikes ... if the guy is low enough. If he's getting healed and protted then it's very possible to fail (I know I've failed even with Lightning Orb on recharge, so it'll be even harder with Barbs and Mark of Pain and unreliable damage).

@Improvavel - sure it has support. The Vanguard Sin is support in itself (deals damage, absorbs damage). YMLAD is another support skill, you can use it to KD dangerous Meteor Showers or Deep Freezes, or to snare melee. Even Enervating Charge (weakness) and Lightning Orb (cracked armor) qualify as support, though not as much support as Eruption and Churning Earth.

It's effective damage compared to everything my heroes have run, which would include SS + MoP + Barbs, VoR, RoJ, etc. If I am disabled (AP interrupted or missed), then kills come a lot slower, if they come at all.

Moloch Vein · May 06, 2009, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Vanguard Sin -> Lightning Orb / Enervating Charge whenever -> when someone drops low, AP, YMLAD, Finish Him, next Vanguard Sin, etc. When low on energy use GoLE, if I AP someone and he gets healed / protted cast Lightning Orb (or just use Lightning Orb while waiting for a target).

Finish Him and YMLAD can easily finish off spikes ... if the guy is low enough. If he's getting healed and protted then it's very possible to fail (I know I've failed even with Lightning Orb on recharge, so it'll be even harder with Barbs and Mark of Pain and unreliable damage).

Well:

First of all, you shouldn't open with the Vanguard in most cases. If you open with Enervating, the assassin will score a knockdown on the condition-inflicted foe, and this also makes it far more likely that he will attack your called target, since that is how AI works (when was the last time you saw a hero not use Ash Blast on a knocked down foe if it was available?)

Second, the strength of the AP/MoP build does not lie in the finishers but in the sustainable damage of target and adjacent AoE. The finishers are a convenience and should actually not even be needed, but most of the time you'll bring one or two anyway. The strength of the CoP/AP build is in the large-area AoE damage and interrupts. What your build brings is exclusively single target damage, in other words, you could say it is nothing but finishers (oversimplifying but still.)

Third, you should try to use FH! in-cast of AP. With this timed properly you can kill instantly with only that skill.

Fourth, and this is the most important part, the damage from Barbs is not unreliable. I get the feeling that you simply do not run with enough physicals, that you fail to use spears on your casters or that you play in uncoordinated teams with bad target calling and following. Also, you're telling me that you can't control who the minions hit, which is true to a large extent, but they still exist, and they will likely hit something.

Just my two cent.

Improvavel · May 07, 2009, 01:04 AM // 01:04

I think Moloch argued the case well.

On the other hand I'm guilty of playing with either another person or with the heroes of a 2nd account all the time - playing with henchmen can be quite a pain as all (or most of) the midline skills that seem to not do much on their own, cover the weakness of the 2-3 physical characters on a party, seems to be absent and in most cases the builds of physical henchmen are a bit lacking.

And I have to agree spears+shields for caster heroes.

Jeydra · May 07, 2009, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I get the feeling that you simply do not run with enough physicals, that you fail to use spears on your casters or that you play in uncoordinated teams with bad target calling and following.

It's possible. I've never used Spears on my heroes; they usually have staves. And I typically never use physical henchmen, preferring casterballs ...

Anyway here's what looks like a pretty reasonable test of how fast the build kills. Assuming non-Charr foes, the build I gave above can easily have 3 Vanguard Assassins on the field. Make of that what you will - it could mean that the 'delete the enemy one-by-one' style of play allows more chances for AP to trigger and so more Vanguard Assassins, or it could mean having finishers are great (because you get to spam more Vanguard Sins!), or it could mean whatever else you want it to mean (no AoE damage for example).

draxynnic · May 07, 2009, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It's possible. I've never used Spears on my heroes; they usually have staves. And I typically never use physical henchmen, preferring casterballs ...

Anyway here's what looks like a pretty reasonable test of how fast the build kills. Assuming non-Charr foes, the build I gave above can easily have 3 Vanguard Assassins on the field. Make of that what you will - it could mean that the 'delete the enemy one-by-one' style of play allows more chances for AP to trigger and so more Vanguard Assassins, or it could mean having finishers are great (because you get to spam more Vanguard Sins!), or it could mean whatever else you want it to mean (no AoE damage for example).

Three? I can have eight Vanguard Assassins on the field. Against non-Charr opponents. Normal opening strategy is Auspicious Incantation followed by Arcane Echo before engaging, then throwing in one Assassin as a spoiler, putting on a feeder hex (I prefer Fragility to Mind Wrack, since with the possibility of conditions flowing that might actually do something), throwing in a second Assassin and then Cry of Pain. (if the target survives that long). Usually, I'll only need Finish Him! for the first target if at all. (Remember that AoE effects mean that, as long as the healers go down first, targets you move onto are likely to have progressively less health.

I have the option to echo CoP instead, but normally I don't - it's fiddly to do the echoing and to get the feeder hex on first, so I normally only do that when facing particularly large groups.

I run this with a 20-energy staff (equivalent to a Nightfall endgame green), radiant insignias, and a rune of attunement, so my energy is somewhere around 60. The build rarely runs out of energy, with the energy supply reinforced with Auspicious Incantation used either on an Assassin or on Conjure Nightmare as the situation demands - so, essentially, I have the same two slots devoted to energy management beyond AP as you do. Except that Nightmare does something to the enemy (it's degen, but sometimes that does make a difference, and it also serves as a feeder hex.

The Necromancer build I have less experience with, but as Moloch points out: It's a matter of setting up your party build to take advantage of it. Even if your minions aren't hitting the target, while your party isn't perfect at it they're generally fairly good at hitting called targets, and those minions are doing something in the meantime. However, you can also maximise the effect by actually watching what the minions are doing and picking targets the minions are attacking when possible.

Jeydra · May 07, 2009, 05:27 AM // 05:27

How do you get 8 Assassins? Each Assassin takes 1s to cast + aftercast, so if you're getting 8 Assassins, then you're scoring something in the neighbourhood of one kill every 2 seconds (not counting the time it takes to cast AP and CoP too) and that really seems to be pushing it to be honest. Do you have a screenshot to share? Although I am impressed by that build, I'd try it out if I had a Mesmer, it does seem more vulnerable to losing AP though as well as more downtime between fights (since you're relying on the initial 60e pool to get you through the fight).

By the way 3 Assassins translates to about one kill every 5s, so if you can consistently top that then that'll settle the matter.

draxynnic · May 07, 2009, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Fast Casting. It's not as if the actual attribute investment in Illusion actually matters (although I do make a moderate investment anyway).

Getting eight assassins in the board is actually a relatively slow rate of killing - after the first couple, it's more common for the enemy not to last long enough to get both assassins off. Of course, that may be saying something about the rest of the team - but this is with an AI team, so they aren't throwing around PvE skills of their own, and four of them are using the least bad hench builds available.

(Also, keep in mind that the build is throwing two assassins per kill, so it only needs three kills in a little under 13 seconds to get eight assassins on the board. No, I don't have max Ebon Vanguard. I don't enjoy grind, and I have 10 characters...)

As for losing AP - it happens occasionally when you mess up, a big heal or prot goes on your target at a bad time, or something like that - but you've mentioned failing an AP too, so I presume that's a problem you have as well. It is, however, significantly downgraded for a while while AP recharges when it does happen

. Downtime is more commonly through having to wait for Arcane Echo to recharge than through energy - AI works fairly well to keep topping energy up, and starting a fight with AI and Arcane Echo means that I'll often be at full energy on throwing that first Assassin even if I wasn't to start off with. I tend to compensate for this by only going single-Assassin for easier battles.

Jeydra · May 07, 2009, 07:35 AM // 07:35

There is a period of aftercast delay (0.75s), so even if you sink 16 points into Fast Casting you are looking at some 1.5s per Assassin, making 8x Assassins = 12s time of casting, and your Assassins last only 15s each, giving you only 3s time to do something else (which kinda means it is physically impossible too, since you also need to cast AP x3, which takes up the remaining 3s at the very very least).

Still I'd like to see a screenshot, if you can upload one with 8 (or 7 - since that would mean 4 kills / 15s) Assassins I'll grant Mesmer damage to be superior to Elementalist damage. Alternatively, if you prefer, show me in-game, I'd want to see it.

Improvavel · May 08, 2009, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

As for losing AP - it happens occasionally when you mess up, a big heal or prot goes on your target at a bad time, or something like that - but you've mentioned failing an AP too, so I presume that's a problem you have as well. It is, however, significantly downgraded for a while while AP recharges when it does happen

I don't know much about the Mesmer or the Ele AP builds but it seems that all the 3 (Me, E and N) AP builds suffer in terms of kill speed when miss an AP .

I don't know about the Me and Ele, but a necro in that situation can still provide some significant advantages for its party due, mostly, to [enfeebling blood], [barbs] and either something like [reckless haste], [shadow of fear] or [rigor mortis]/[defile defenses].

Moloch Vein · May 08, 2009, 08:48 PM // 20:48

The elementalist AP builds usually hurt a lot more from losing AP than either the mesmer or the N builds; the mesmer builds hurt the least. This is because the E builds generally contain several utility skills on a terrible recharge while the most cumbersome skills for the N are Rigor and Mark, while the Me builds really don't need AP all that much and can make do with Echo, Mantra or something similar (still a bit weaker imho but not hopelessly so.)

Jeydra · May 11, 2009, 09:04 AM // 09:04

@Moloch - Why? Mesmer builds should hurt the most and Necro the least, since the Mesmer build involves multiple skills with very long cooldown. With AP down energy is an immediate problem, which Necros can circumvent with Soul Reaping (if people are still dying) and Elementalists with the Attunement (which should still be up).

Moloch Vein · May 11, 2009, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Alright, it might be that the necromancer build is hurt the least. However, most AP E builds include stuff like Meteor Shower and Eruption (I'm not saying these are optimal builds but they are frequently carried) which are on a huge, huge recharge.

ares296 · May 26, 2009, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

No. Nonono. Nonononononono. NO!
A 120 damage spell might look good on paper but it usually has a casting time and a cooldown. On average, you can rarely ever cast more then a spell every 3 seconds. Which cuts down the nice looking 120 damage into 40 DPS which is average at best.

Elementalists produce nice shiny numbers in NM, yes. But they lack in DPS, both in HM and in NM. The fact that they are sought in NM as damage dealers actually doesn't speak for GW players. Obviously, the majority is fooled by shiny numbers and DD stereotypes and not able to think about DPS themselves.

one thing to add to this... bosses and monk ai have to be taken down fast... so it doesnt matter the stuff you say.... they got support from other team for the dps but they have to just do a high dmg hit on the target so it has to try to heal itself with effect of 1 failing 2 leaving own team dead so other team members can spike the other ai around it or just the monk itself...

AtomicMew · May 28, 2009, 10:16 PM // 22:16

I don't have an elementalist for PvE, but it seems to me that a water ele would be the best for HM, for general support.

Deep freeze + maelstrom has always been a deadly combination and that can be combined with AP too.